Thursday, April 17, 2008

The Bay of Pigs: The "Fiasco" that Wasn't a Fiasco


No man can do more than his duty and no man should ever be content to do less."José Martí

Today marks the 47th anniversary of the Bay of Pigs invasion, that proverbial "fiasco" that has co-opted that word, since "fiasco" is never used anymore except in referring to the Bay of Pigs or to any other venture that is compared to it. But what exactly is a "fiasco?" The word which dates from the 1850s is used to refer to a complete failure. It is derived from the Italian fare fiasco, which literally means to "make a bottle," that is, to execute a maneuver that completely cuts off the enemy and prevents his retreat. Something similar to a "bottleneck," which is now used in another context. Of course, Castro did not win at the Bay of Pigs because of his enlightened strategy, transmitted from the safety of his bunker. He won by default because the U.S. did not live up to its commitments to the freedom fighters. If anything, it was Kennedy himself who masterfully executed the fiasco by instructing American ships not to re-supply the freedom fighters (who literally ran out of ammunition) and Americans fighter planes not to facilitate their landing or engage the Castroite planes that reigned terror on them unchallenged. There is, of course, a better word to describe Cuba's greatest national tragedy (greater in its impact even than Marti's death). That word is not "fiasco" but betrayal. The difference between a "fiasco" and a "betrayal" is that betrayal implies a betrayer and fiasco no agent at all. John F. Kennedy said that "victory has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan." In fact, Kennedy was the father of this particular "orphan." How odd seems his amazement that no else else would claim its parentage! Or perhaps not so odd: the biggest lesson that his Nazi-sympathizer of a father taught all his boys was how to evade personal responsibility for their actions. It was in Cuba that the Kennedys made their fortune running rum during Prohibition and it was in Cuba that Joe's son proved that if daddy's business had passed into his hands he would have run it into the ground literally, for JFK had absolutely no idea of what it would take to make a successful landing in Cuba.

The Bay of Pigs was certainly the most ill-calculated amphibious invasion in history, the more so because it was executed by a country that had supposedly mastered this kind of warfare 15 years earlier in the Pacific theatre during World War II. In that conflict, it had taken 100,000 American troops and billions of tons of materiel to capture the miscroscopic Japanese-occupied island of Tarawa. Just 15 years later, President Kennedy proposed to capture Cuba, an island 6000 times the size of Tarawa, with just 1453 men and a few tons of equipment! That, of course, would have been possible only as a prelude to a fullscale U.S. invasion.

When recruits were first sought among the Cuban exile community, the U.S. government received enough applications to field ten battalions. Instead, it arbitrarily limited the invasion force to just 1400 men when 14,000 would still have been only one-tenth of Castro's army. Cuba's would-be liberators were chosen by a strict criteria. Adherents of General Batista were excluded. The Administration made sure that the Brigade represented a broad slice of Cuban society -- i.e. so many laborers to so many professionals, so many blacks to so many whites, so many from the east of the island and so many from the west, etc. If one-tenth of the attention paid to the demographics of the invasion force had been paid to the logistics of the invasion, Cubans might be celebrating today the 47th anniversary of their deliverance from Communism. But appearances were always more important to Kennedy than results, as his civil rights record, for example, also bears out.

The rebel army was trained by the CIA in Nicaragua under the auspices of Anastasio Somoza fils, the other president involved in this invasion, the one who didn't betray us (and who 20 years later would be borne to his grave on the shoulders of veterans of the Brigade 2506, a victim of Castro's vengeance and of another gutless American president). Somoza had much in common with Kennedy: both owed their presidencies to their respective fathers and both assumed office through electoral fraud. The difference was that the Latin American dictator was a man of his word and his U.S. counterpart was not.

The Brigade 2506 were conveyed to Cuba on U.S. ships and abandoned to their fate there. The spontaneous uprising that was supposed to be sparked by the invasion never materialized. It was not that the Cuban people did not support their would-be liberators but that Castro was better informed about the invasion plans than the resistance in Cuba, which was repeatedly misled and lied to by the Americans. Reports in The New York Times and other American newspapers gave Castro all the warning he needed to round up every man who might have lent his support to the invasion. Because the prisons were already full Castro confined them in sports stadiums which were wired with dinamite and would have been blown-up if the freedom fighters had gained the advantage.

For three glory filled days — the first time that Cubans had engaged in actual combat since 1898 — the courageous men of the Brigade 2506 struggled against impossible odds to achieve a goal that was clearly beyond even the super-human tenacity they displayed in the pursuit of it. The freedom fighters managed to inflict 30 times the casualties they sustained, but tenacity will only carry you so far: tenacity cannot take the place of guns — of which they had far too few; tenacity cannot compensate for the element of surprise, which was lost when plans for the invasion were leaked to The New York Times; and, finally, tenacity cannot rise from the ground to the skies.

Kennedy had promised the exiles that "the skies would be yours." It turns out that what Kennedy actually meant was that their path to heaven would be unobstructed by American fighter planes. The vital aircover that the freedom fighters had been promised was withdrawn at the last moment to avoid the appearance of American participation in this American enterprise. The freedom fighters were left to the mercy of air strikes flown by Russian and Czech pilots. American ships, which were so close to the action that they could actually witness the massacre, begged their superiors to be allowed to re-supply the Cubans or evacuate the survivors. But Kennedy would not allow it. Unable to hold back his tears, the American fleet commander could do no more than wire his apologies to the freedom fighters.

Kennedy had a clear choice. He could go ahead with the invasion and do everything in his power to assure its success. Or he could scrap all plans for an invasion of Cuba. He chose, instead, to launch the invasion while denying it every opportunity for success. What he hoped to gain thereby is anybody's guess. What he in fact achieved was a victory for Castro.

But victory cannot vindicate the tyrant nor defeat vilify the freedom fighters. The victors shall celebrate this day, for so it is in human affairs: in victory, even cowards boast. Those who survived this defeat shall also commemorate this day, for to forget is to disavow the past and there is nothing in the past of which they should be ashamed, unlike both their enemies and their allies.

Glory to the heroes and martyrs of the Bay of Pigs and peace to their manly and generous souls!
April 17, 2007

Also of interest:

Arthur M. Schlesinger: The Devil in Mr. Kennedy

106 comments:

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

Mat said: He won by default because the U.S. did not live up to its commitments to the freedom fighters



Ok, i stopped reading at this point. Help me to understand something mat.



How can you blame Kennedy exclusively? When a large part of the battle plan, (as submitted by the Cuban exiles themselves) was that the Cuban population would violently rise up in the streets of Havana. Thereby, creating a 2nd front, which would have diverted Fidel's resources to Havana, rather than the Bay of Pigs!!


Moreover, the complancy of the Cuban people have been borne out by history. Even now, while Fidel is on his death bed, or in fact dead. The Cuban people still "refuse" to take matter in their own hands, with/without airstrikes.

John Thomas Roche said...

Refreshing post Manuel. Playa Giron was definitely more of a betrayal than a fiasco. Love the entymological exploration of fiasco and how the word proves to be an obfuscation to the fact: Kennedy betrayed Cuba.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

john said: Kennedy betrayed Cuba.



Many Cubans also betrayed Cuba!!

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

John:

JFK accepted the responsibility exclusively for the failure of the invasion and I see no reason to object.

Castro imprisoned hundreds of thousands of Cubans a week before the invasion when insiders in the Kennedy administration tipped off The New York Times as to the plans for the invasion.

Do not blame the supposed "complacency of the Cuban people" for the failure of the Bay of Pigs invasion but the predations of the Castro regime upon the Cuban made possible then and still made possible today by Kennedy's act of betrayal.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

It is amazing how Kennedy gets all the blame. In many cases more than Fidel. When it was the Cuban people who wanted Fidel as their leader in the first place.


Too painful to even discuss it!!

nonee moose said...

Amen, MAT.

More of this, please.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

Mat said: Cubans a week before the invasion when insiders in the Kennedy administration tipped off The New York Times as to the plans for the invasion.





You mean the "insiders" being some Cuban spies who pretended to be anti-Fidel?


Lets keep it real!!

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

mat said: Castro imprisoned hundreds of thousands of Cubans


And yet hundreds of thousands of able Cuban men remained in Miami. And could have compensated for the Cubans who were imprisoned!!



How many brave Cuban-Americans joined up to free Cuba? And how many declined to do so?



Lets keep it real!!

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

John:

The insiders being members of the Kennedy administration who objected to the invasion.

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

John:

I said that 10 batallions could have been fielded against Castro except that Kennedy would not allow it. The fewer the freedom fighters, he reasoned, the less likely that it would be though that the invasion was planned and organized by the U.S.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

Mat,


Your short-sighted analysis begins and ends with Kennedy. Which for lesser thinkers would be sufficient. But for "thinkers," who are in fact true "thinkers," your post sounds like what it is, an excuse!!


Your post would never make past a man who has carried a rifle for "his" nation!!

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

John:

Finally, on this anniversary of the lack of complacency of the Cuban people I am not going to discuss the supposed complacency of the Cuban people.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

mat said: The insiders being members of the Kennedy administration who objected to the invasion.



You mean Cuban exiles who objected to the invasion, those insiders? Truth of the matter, "many" Cubans were upset with Cubans who took advantage to live in freedom during the Mariel boatlift.

As in the 80's, "many" Cubans were and continue to be happy with the current situation in Cuba. Many Cubans have a vested interest with Fidel in power. As you have stated so in other blogs!!

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

mat said: Finally, on this anniversary of the lack of complacency of the Cuban people



Many Cuban bloggers have raised this very same question. But, if it is too painful for you discuss. Then i will respect that!!

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

Noone & John Roche:

At the bottom of the post you will now find a link to another article related to it:

Arthur M. Schlesinger: The Devil in Mr. Kennedy

The problem, my friends, is that you have only been paying attention to the anti-Babalú articles. There are hundreds of articles on this blog that have nothing to do with Babalú.

nonee moose said...

I wasn't among those who begged you to stop pounding BobbyLou. I like your writing, and if that is what inspires you, who am I to quarrel with it? It's your blog, have at it, and I will read or not at my will and preference.

I disagreed with your hyperbolic statements regarding Henry's "praise" of raul, and said so. That's all.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

Mat,

This has nothing to do with my focus on Babulu. You and i have had this "bay of pigs" discussion many times in MCC.

Your position is that all of Cuba's problems begin and ends with Kennedy. My position is that Kennedy is just one float in the parade of horribles.


Lets agree, to disagree!!

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

John:

We have always agreed to disagree which explains how we have always been on amicable terms.

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

P.S.:

I like that phrase "one float in the parade of horribles."

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

nonee said: I wasn't among those who begged you to stop pounding BobbyLou



Those Babulu-backed pleas were desperate attempts to stop Mat's merciless smackdowns. When Mat post about Cuba, you will never see those faces in here. When Mat's post are Babulu related, they will fill up Mat's threads with comments. As it has always been Babulu first, Cuba's freedom second.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

mat said: We have always agreed to disagree which explains how we have always been on amicable terms.



true :)

Cari said...

Kennedy not only betrayed Cubans at the Bay of Pigs, but all future generations of Cubans by signing the Kennedy-Khrushchev pact, thereby ensuring and protecting Castro's rule on the island.

There are many good Cuban men in American jails right now for having tried to organize invasions against Castro.

Castro could not have had a more proficient and single minded protector than the USA.

To deny that is to deny history.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

mat said: I like that phrase "one float in the parade of horribles."



Because Cuba's recent history has been a parade of horribles, that cannot be laid at one mans feet.

The Cuban, Cuban-American, Cuban exile, and Cuba's history is much more complex and sophisticated than one American President.

And to argue otherwise, is to diminish the nation of Cuba, to the "few" that actually try to gain an understanding about this forgotten and abused nation!!

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

cari said: Kennedy not only betrayed Cubans at the Bay of Pigs, but all future generations of Cubans





Yah, we still honor that pact with the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact!!



Other than that, i will let you bask blissfully in your own ignorance!!

Cari said...

John, I agree with you that we can't blame everything on just one American President. But there are moments and decisions in history, just as there are decisions in one's own life, that will determine the path of your destiny.

Kennedy's decisions with respect to Cuba were just those kinds of decisions. He had the power to help and allow Cubans to fight and direct the course of their own futures but he decided to side with the Soviets.

Quite frankly, it seems as if it is too painful for you to see the truth. I will respect your pain and not call you "ignorant."

Cari said...

P.S.
I wasn't aware that the Warsaw Pact was still in effect?

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

Cari: I wasn't aware that the Warsaw Pact was still in effect?




LOL, yes, you intelligently figured out that the Warsaw Pact is no longer in effect.


Now here is where you get the toy at the bottom of the cereal box.

Do you know why the Warsaw Pact is no longer in effect?



:)

John Longfellow the Victim said...

Hint: by signing the Kennedy-Khrushchev pact,

joep said...

Kennedy gets the exclusive blame, John, for having taken the decisions that turned the Bay of Pigs into a total debacle. And this debacle set a precedent that influenced subsequent US policy makers in their treatment of the Cuban situation. By engineering our defeat @ Bay of Pigs and the resulting shaming of his presidency and the US as a nation, Kennedy ensured that no other US leader who was poised to influence Cuba on behalf of freedom would take any risk whatsoever that entailed action by force of arms but included the possibility (no matter how remote) of the defeat of a properly equipped invasion force of appropriate size by pro-Castro forces.

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

John:

The Warsaw Pact does not exist anymore but the Kennedy-Khrushchev Pact has never been abrogated by the U.S. or Russia, the successor state to the treaty obligations of the former Soviet Union.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

mat,


For crying out loud. I know the Warsaw Pact doesnt exist anymore. Because the Soviet Union does not exist anymore. Therefore the Pact that Kennedy signed with Kruchev doesnt exist anymore!!



Yah i get it, but do you guys get it?

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

joep said: Kennedy gets the exclusive blame




Ok, fine with me, sit back the next 50 years and let your grandchildren blame Kennedy. Outside of your community, nobody buys your argument!!

Fantomas said...

Mat si ocurriese otra invasion y cayeran presos en manos de los cubanos

Ya no se haria el cambio por compotas?

Me imagino que querrian cambiarlos por los 5 espias o quizas por celulares

los tiempos cambian

joep said...

"your community", wrote John.

And what community would that be, John? You definitely don't know what you're talking about now.

Fantomas said...

joep

long john is an anti cuban character . I really dont know why Mat has lower the standards with this person.

Mat knew this since the days of connection

He is coming know full circle, pay attention to his words

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

John:

Put simply:

The Kennedy-Krushchev Pact is still in effect today.

Unlike the Warsaw Pact.

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

joep:

Your analysis is excellent as to what froze American presidents after Kennedy into complacency about Communism in Cuba. It was not just the Kennedy-Khrushchev Pact. It was a failure of American will and conscience.

Mamey said...

MAT: Excellent post. Kennedy's betrayal was not the first. Several other U.S. administrations have betrayed the Cuban people since the 19th century. I know you know that, but sadly it's apparent that many, some Cuban bloggers in Miami included (yes, I do mean the tyrant duo in Babaluland), are quite ignorant of Cuban history.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

joep asked: And what community would that be, John? You definitely don't know what you're talking about now.



Your community meaning the group of Cubans who wishes to pin every Cuban ill upon everyone else but themselves.


Hear me, and hear me good. When you people had the whole worlds undivided attention during the Elian travesty. You could have taught the world about the horrors of Cuba. Instead, you let the extreme elements within your community hijack Elian, and show the world what damn fools some of you are. Creating not sympathy, but bigotry against Cuban-Americans.


Again, we have the anniversy of the "bay of pigs." Another opportunity to teach the world. And what do "some" within your community wish to do. Bash on a dead man.

Americans, and America wll never listen to you, if the rememberance of the pay of pigs, is all about attacking a dead man.

It is basic living 101, you dont attack a dead man. There is not a bar in America, that you can walk into and starting hollering, "damn that Kennedy," without getting physically assaulted. And that includes, most good ole boy republican Southerners!!


But people like yourself think if you keep blaming kennedy for all of Cuba's problems. That America and Americans will start to hate Kennedy, as much as some Cubans do.


Keep on slamming Kennedy, and you will keep generating bigotry, that your children and grandchildren will have to deal with!!

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

John:

Put simply:

The Kennedy-Krushchev Pact is still in effect today.

Unlike the Warsaw Pact






Really Mat, so the dissolved nation of the Soviet Union still enforces that Pact. Was that before or after the Soviet Union pulled out of Cuba?

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

LOl, nuclear missles pointed at Florida and our European allies are what froze American President!!


I just laugh!!

John Thomas Roche said...

Manny (can I call you manny?)

I know what you're capable of! Gossip doesn't suit you and is distracts. Anyhow, loves the post and I'll check the link this afternoon.

Peace
John

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

John:

Russia inherited the treaty obligations of the Soviet Union under international law and has upheld them.

joep said...

John writes, "Your community meaning the group of Cubans who wishes to pin every Cuban ill upon everyone else but themselves. Hear me, and hear me good. When you people..."

Thanks John, I'm flattered to know that you consider me a Cuban.

Alas, I'm disappointed to see your use of the phrase "you people", a racial touchstone made infamous by Ross Perot.

Alas, I'm not one of those "people," John, unless by people you mean men and women who still fight for a free Cuba and recognize the complex process of betrayal, submission, inaction and collaboration on the part of the US gov't and citizenry that has resulted in the survival to this day of a communist totalitarian regime 90 miles south of our borders.

I will concede that the first significant error was committed by Cuba's best and brightest, who fled the island in the immediate aftermath of the Communist take over rather than immediately forming a broad-based counter-revolutionary movement.

But once Castro had consolidated power, killed or imprisoned those Cubans still in Cuba who were capable of organizing resistance to him and hobbled the population by destroying the economy and monopolizing the use of violence, the only possibility of his overthrow was by an external force or by an internal force supplied externally.

Kennedy sabotaged this possibility and subsequent US leaders have ensured that there is no threat to Cuba from abroad by disavowing their responsibility to foster and support an internal revolt there (since we know that the US would never again lead or support overt military action against Castro's regime).

As MaT and I have pointed out on numerous occasions, along with KC and CB, there will be no domestic, internal overthrow of Castro regime by the Cuban people because:

1. They are starving;
2. They are economically destitute on the single-actor or familial level;
3. They have no access to weaponry of any sort.

A home-grown military overthrow of Raul is theoretically possible (in that a group of Cuban military officers could lead troops against the Castro regime using their men and material), but we know this won't happen b/c the Cuban army is so intimately tied to the Castro regime, and the upper echelon officers benefit immensely from the perpetuation of the current Cuban system.

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

John Roche:

Please feel free to call me "Manny." I must continue, however, to address you as "John Roche" for obvious reasons.

Vana said...

John:

You should read Grayston L. Lynch's Decision for Disaster, a very informative book, he was the CIA case officer on the Brigade's command ship, therefore he gives us an eyewitness account by an American, he too feels it was a betrayal: Here in his words

The invasion was supposed to take place off Trinidad, Trinidad had everything the planners were looking for, a defensible beachhead and it contained an airfield that could with a slight extension to the runways, enable the brigade's B-26's to operate from Cuban soil.

The invasion was supposed to have taken place on March 10th, Kennedy scrapped it and changed it to a swamp, the Bay of Pigs, insuring it's total failure, it is Kennedy who stabbed us in the back, Kennedy and only Kennedy is to be blamed for the complete failure at the Bay of Pigs, or as Manuel so aptly put it, today we would be celebrating our deliverance from Communism, instead we are still in mourning for our lost homeland. Thank you very much Mr President.

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

joep:

You make a very cogent point. It is one of the greatest fictions of history that a starving people will rise up against their oppressors. The fact is they can hardly rise up in the morning let alone rise up in arms (actually, without arms). It is the well-fed masses that initiate revolutions against regimes which can be overthrown because they are not totalitarian in nature.

Anonymous said...

Wow, this topic totally died. No one has a rejoinder or counterpoint to joep, or an indictment of John's not-so-subtle racism???

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

joep said: I will concede that the first significant error was committed by Cuba's best and brightest, who fled the island in the immediate aftermath of the Communist take over rather than immediately forming a broad-based counter-revolutionary movement.






Yes, when the best and brightest flees a nation. It leaves a devastating void that nothing can fill, even an American President.

Thank you for your raising this often ignored issue. Something which remains to painful for Mat, and others to even think about, much less discuss!!

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

anon said: Wow, this topic totally died. No one has a rejoinder or counterpoint to joep, or an indictment of John's not-so-subtle racism???




Racism? "You people" is now considered racism? LOL, i told you that i am not a bigot, nor have i ever practiced bigotry, against anybody, and that includes Cuban immigrants.

I also told you that when i "used" to live in Miami, that i had several Cuban immigrants that lived in my same neighborhood.

So the attempts to label me, or my remarks as somehow racist, fails.



P.S.

Stop being a political correct liberal!!

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

mat said: You make a very cogent point. It is one of the greatest fictions of history that a starving people will rise up against their oppressors




This right here is by far the most ignorant remark that i have read from you. Go tell the people of Saraejvo who endured 5 years of a vicious encirclment by the communist Serbs that starving people would never resist.


Mat, as an anti-communist. It might help you to take a tour of people who have "actually" resisted communist forces. Rather than those who sit around and caste blame on dead men!!

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

vana said: You should read Grayston L. Lynch's Decision for Disaster, a very informative book, he was the CIA case officer on the Brigade's command ship,



LOL, no thanks. A re-writing and/or redacted version of the Bay of Pigs by the CIA. The same CIA who to this day write books about Hussein's undiscovered weapons of mass destructions.

No thanks!!

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

anon aka Babulu member said: Wow, this topic totally died.



Yah, and unlike Babulu, your discussions never get started!!

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

Now, back to my unfinished meal!!

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

John:

So dead men are never "guilty?"

Dying is all that somebody like Kennedy has to do to be absolved of all historical blame for Cuba, or Vietnam, for that matter?

I guess it's even more exculpatory when you don't merely die but are killed?

Anonymous said...

Where is Fantomas in all of this?

Anonymous said...

John, why do you assume I'm Babalu? MaT knows the truth, since he checks IP's.

Anonymous said...

John wrote:

"Yes, when the best and brightest flees a nation. It leaves a devastating void that nothing can fill, even an American President.

Thank you for your raising this often ignored issue. Something which remains to painful for Mat, and others to even think about, much less discuss!!"

This is true, that there was a devastating void in the aftermath of the mass-exodus of Cuban elites following Castro's take over. What filled this void was what became the Castro regime. What could have filled it was an amphibious landing force sent to oust Castro and company, restore the Cuban Constitution of 19.. (1940?) and facilitate the creation of a technocrat-dominated elected government.

Maybe MaT is writing about Bay of Pigs b/c today is the anniversary. And one can't write about Bay of Pigs w/o discussing Kennedy's role in fucking over the Cuban people and ensuring the failure of an anemic, poorly-executed military action that set the tone for the next 22 years of US military action.

It wasn't until ... Reagan in ... what, 1983, that the US actually resumed "winning" its public foreign military excursions.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

mat,


It just seems to me that "most" Cubans would love to dig Kennedy up and shake their fist at him. Much like "some" Cubans like to shake their fist at anybody but themselves, who they think should have done more to free "their" nation.

Fulano de Cal said...

The best and brightest that left early did so because many of their peers were being sent to the paredon. We can't blame them.

MaT, thank you for this wonderful post. As a teenager, I was good friends with the grandson of one of Samoza's generals who fled to the US. It was nice to meet other kids who hated communists like us! Thanks for mentioning him.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

anon said: It wasn't until ... Reagan in ... what, 1983, that the US actually resumed "winning" its public foreign military excursions.



Actually, we lost Lebanon, with Reagan tucking our tails between our legs and running out of that nation. Which explains why Reagan "never" invaded a nation during his 8 years. Maybe Bush Jr should have learned from the Gipper. But he was busy recovering in Betty Ford!!

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

fulano said: The best and brightest that left early did so because many of their peers were being sent to the paredon. We can't blame them.




Yup, a great reason to flee one's birth nation!!

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

anon said: poorly-executed military action that set the tone for the next 22 years of US military action.





1) If those were English-speaking Europeans, instead of Spanish-speaking Cubans, rest assured that America would have planted the American flag down in Cuba long ago. See: Bosnia Hell, if Cuba had oil, America would have invaded. See: Iraq



2) America is scared of the Cuban. And she is satisfied that a strongman has her knee in Cuba's back. Always has been, and always will be!!


Just my 2

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

Actually, Reagan invaded Grenada, right after we lost Lebanon in 83.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

anon asked: Where is Fantomas in all of this?


Isnt it obvious that Fantomas, and the others who were pleading for Mat to blog about Cuba, now have nothing to say?

Sure they are currently visiting, but not to comment on what they were pleading for, i.e., Cuban-related post.

But rather, they are visiting just ensure that Mat is no longer posting about Henry. Hence, the complete and utter silence from those who were just pleading yesterday for Mat to do what he has dont today!!


LOL, phoneys!! Which is just one of many reasons why Cuba is not free. Because at the bottom of all of their protest. They care more about their comfortable lives in America, and protection of chivatos like Henry and Val. Rather than supporting a free Cuba!!

Phoneys!!

Anonymous said...

good topic-- good exchange of ideas. what a difference a day makes !!!.... I'm sure the babalusianos are learning alot about Cuba and about what freedom of speech/comments can do to a blog...

thanks to all of you......

Fantomas said...

Where is Fantomas in all of this?

No me he ido , solo observo y apunto

Fantomas no se las sabe toda, hay ciertas areas que el no domina , en el caso de Bahia de cochinos es muy poco lo que tengo que aportar, creo no habia nacido cuando eso y ademas estaba en Cuba

Por esta razon no hare ningun comentario al respecto. Solo pienso dos cosas , los jovenes que fueron a pelear tenian cojones y la traicion del gobierno americano impidio que la operacion fuese exitosa.

long john toma un buche compadre

somebody translate it to this nut

joep said...

Oye, Fantomas, que quiere decir "toma un buche compadre"?

Fantomas said...

es como decir , enough callese

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

long john takes a crop godfather

somebody translate it to


That is what my online Spanish translator came up with!!

Cari said...

Longfellow,

Get a grip. Living on the same street as Cubans doesn't mean that you're not a racist. You sure sound like a hater to me.

By the way, the Warsaw Pact no longer exists because the newly freed nations decided to scrap it.

Nothing has changed in Cuba. And the USA still upholds the Kennedy-Khrushchev pact.

I personally know a man who was planning an invasion of Cuba from the Bahamas and he was arrested and turned over to the USA and is in an American jail for his efforts.

Inform yourself better before you speak.

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

cari,


The only hating that i do is on ignorant bumpkins. Ignorant bumpkins who get in my face trying to sound all informed about Cuba after watching "Lost City."



P.S.

On the ex-Warsaw Pact. I doubt that you have ever set foot in Eastern Europe as i have. If you on the off chance you ever decide to visit an eastern European nation. Please heed my learned advice.

Keep to yourself the well-known and vicious Cuban "hating" on JFK, Bobby Kennedy, Clinton, Mandela, MLK, Carter, and all the other Americans that Cuban immigrants love to hate. In for nothing more, than your own personal safety!!


As the rest of the world, save Cuban immigrants, it has been my experience that these men are loved and revered in Eastern Europe.

Fantomas said...

get to know the real long john

an anti cuban character that Mat has welcome here

pa la basura

nuff said

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

John:

No one loves, respects and understands anti-Castro Cubans better than our onetime brothers-in-suffering in the former Eastern bloc countries.

Anonymous said...

fantomas,


I am not anti-cuban. Rather,I am anti-communist, anti-militant, anti-knucklehead, anti-chivato, anti-illegal immigrant, etc, etc, etc.


Now which one of "my" categories do you fit in? Perhaps, all of the above?



How come my post wont print under my nickname

Anonymous said...

hey mat something is wrong with you blog, it says: url contains illegal characters?

Anonymous said...

its me john

Fantomas said...

that's you john and ilegal character on cuban issues

Can you locate cuba in a map jonny boy?

it is not in sudafrica you know , I know americans dont buy maps

Fantomas said...

Mat te estan hackeando tu blog

Be careful


it could disappear soon

my sources tell me , you are on the black list @ Google

Anonymous said...

mat your blog is down dude.



john,

Manuel A.Tellechea said...

fantomas:

I am on a lot of people's black lists. But don't worry, I know how to protect myself.

Rin tin tin said...

this thread died. It has no more legs




time to change it

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

testing

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

Hey, its back!!

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

fantomas,


Now, what exactly were you saying when my back was turned?

Fantomas said...

Bend over El negro Perucho te quiere engrasar

he wants to know your ass

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

Fantamos,

Ah, im not going bring Mat's "Bay of Pigs" anniversy post into that type of chat. You are the same man, who was just yesterday was whining about non-Cuban related post.

And you call yourself Cuban!!



P.S.

I will save my wrath for you later. Believe that!!

Fantomas said...

it is not fantamos, it is Fantomas

got it , long john

Fantomas said...

And you call yourself Cuban!!


No john , iam from somalia

Anonymous said...

No, you are not a Cuban. You are a Babulu paid chivato.

Fantomas said...

who dat?

lol ja, ja, ja, ja, ja, ja, ja, ja

que me parta un rayo

Fantomas said...

a la verdad Mat que aqui hay que oir ,. leer unas cosas tan asombrosas

Con que ahora yo soy chivato? a Ver que alguien me diga a quien carajos yo he chivateado , carajo

Los unicos chivatos que yo conozco en la blogosfera se llaman Alex hernandez de ny y las dos magpies

Fantomas said...

las dos urracas parlanchinas

chan cleta said...

alex hernandez = chivato y maricon

Anonymous said...

That is why KC kicked and banned you.


ja ja ja ja ja ja

Fantomas said...

who gives a fuck about them

i dont

Fantomas said...

anonimo 9.44pm

who are you?

make my day

are you my worse nightmare

lol

Anonymous said...

Boring...

Anonymous said...

fantomas<-------communist paid chivato

Anonymous said...

fantomas<-----------commie rat

Anonymous said...

Hey Dobbs,

Thanks for your post and vigorous defence of your positions.

I happen to believe you are completely wrong and totally ignorant on the subject of Bay of Pigs, Cuba and Kennedy.

You just can't help yourself. Garbage in, garbage out.

200+ years ago a bunch of enlightened aristocrats, tricked the French into bankrupting themselves helping 13 British colonies fight for their independence. Thanks to these prro saps/friends, the colonists kicked out the Brits after many, many years of fighting.

All "founding fathers" and many more would have hanged in London if it were not for French aid. Heck, even with French aid it was "touch and go" for most of the war. But without this aid, for sure, the US would not exist today. Who knows how many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence would have fled to Cuba with their families instead of certain death had things not turned out the way they did?

There is an old Guajiro saying that goes something like this, "Don't spit straight up."

Anonymous said...

Hey Dobbs,

Thanks for your post and vigorous defense of your positions.

I happen to believe you are completely wrong and totally ignorant on the subject of Bay of Pigs, Cuba, and Kennedy.

You just can't help yourself. Garbage in, garbage out.

200+ years ago a bunch of enlightened aristocrats, tricked the French into bankrupting themselves helping 13 British colonies fight for their independence. Thanks to these poor saps/friends, the colonists kicked out the Brits after many, many years of fighting.

All "founding fathers" and many more would have hanged in London if it were not for French aid. Heck, even with French aid it was "touch and go" for most of the war. But without this aid, for sure, the US would not exist today.

Who knows how many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence would have fled to Cuba with their families instead of facing certain death had things not turned out the way they did.

There is an old Guajiro saying that goes something like this, "Don't spit straight up."

john longfellow aka lou dobbs said...

Fact is, the English were willing to at least help themselves, unlike the Cubans on the island.


Nice try though!!

Anonymous said...

Nice troll, Longfellow. Anyway, can we close this thread out? It seems to have run its course.

Anyone up for a spirited debate on the future commercialization of Cuba and the building of retail outlets on the Malecón? Personally I'd be happy to see a row of McDonalds/Starbucks/7-Elevens if it meant there was enough tax revenue to fix the Malecon seawall down by Calle G y Calle I:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=10968363858231254459,23.145659,-82.393407&q=Parque+Mart%C3%83%C2%AD+%4023.145659,-82.393407&jsv=107&ie=UTF8&ll=23.145658,-82.393405&spn=0.008672,0.013475&t=h&z=17&iwloc=addr

Anonymous said...

close this thread now

it is boring

John Thomas Roche said...

Manny, I'd actually prefer John Thomas. (¿Quizás Juan Tómas o simplemente Juan?)